Fri 20 Mar 2009
Feigning Amnesia
Posted by Miss Represented under Meredith Kercher Case
[22] Comments
The recent court testimony concerning Raffaele Sollecito’s computer activities (or lack thereof) between the hours of 9.10pm on the night of the murder right through to 5.30am the next morning, virtually annihilates his alibi of being at home in front of the computer whilst the murder was being committed. Further alibi bashing testimony is expected in the upcoming trial dates when the evidence that Raffaele didn’t pick up a call from his father that night will be presented to the court as will the evidence that Raffaele and his former girlfriend Amanda Knox simultaneously switched their phones off approximately one hour before the attack on Meredith which tragically culminated in her death.
The evidence and testimony so far has incontrovertibly shown that neither Amanda nor Raffaele have a consistent or credible alibi for their whereabouts and actions the night Meredith Kercher was murdered.
Playing Musical Chairs with the Alibi
Raffaele spoke to a reporter called Kate Mansey and claimed he had gone to a party with Amanda on the night of the murder. When the police questioned him with regard to certain inconsistencies in his alibi, with Amanda voluntarily accompanying him to the police station, Raffaele admitted he had ‘told a load of rubbish’ because he didn’t think about ‘inconsistencies’ in Amanda’s version of events, he then told police that Amanda had left his apartment to go to Le Chic and meet some friends whilst he had stayed at the apartment and watched a film whilst downloading another one to watch later, when Amanda (who was conveniently sat at the police station of her own free will) was confronted with the fact that Raffaele was no longer providing her with an alibi she broke down and ‘confessed’ to being at the cottage that night and told the police that she had covered her ears while her boss Patrick Lumumba had raped and killed Meredith. Amanda made a statement which implicated Lumumba and though this cannot be used in the trial due to no lawyer being present, a handwritten note to the police concerning this false accusation has been admitted as evidence. Amanda claims to have been put under pressure by the police by saying that she was hit, not given food or water and essentially implies she was ‘coerced’ into implicating Lumumba. This has not only been shown to be false but has also landed her a further slander charge alongside the one for making the false allegation against Lumumba in the first place. Amanda has since reverted back to her original story by claiming she was at the apartment all night with Raffaele, Raffaele has not confirmed this and as such Amanda has no real alibi. Both claim to have smoked so much marijuana they cannot remember exactly what happened that night, what they did or who was there. Raffaele has been clinging on to his computer/marijuana alibi for dear life and now half of it has melted away, all he is left with is the completely unbelievable insinuation that ‘he cannot remember what happened’ indeed Amanda seems to think this is also a credible alibi.
So here we have two young people, both of whom are known to Meredith, one with keys to the cottage where she was murdered. Both switched their phones off shortly before Meredith was killed and neither have a credible alibi for their actions and whereabouts that night. One claims to have spent the evening at home with the other, the other claims to have spent the evening alone at the computer, they both claim to have been so stoned they can’t remember anything at all, yet both equally ‘remember’ they slept until 10.30am the next morning. Computer evidence has shown one has lied about his activities that night and has also shown that at least one of them played a music file at 5.30am so one or both are lying about sleeping through to 10.30am.
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito (aside from Guede who admitted involvement) are in all likelihood the only two people in Perugia that night who, despite repeated interviews, pre-trial hearings and expensive lawyers , still have no credible or consistent alibi for their actions and whereabouts the night Meredith was killed. This, coupled with DNA evidence and witness statements confirms what Claudia Matteini described as ‘strong indications of guilt’. The only card Amanda and Raffaele have left to play is their ‘word’
Exactly why a jury would believe anything these two have to say is beyond me
At this point in time it seems fairly likely that Amanda and Raffaele are lying, not just about what they did that night but also by claiming they can’t remember because they smoked too much marijuana. This is not credible for a number of reasons:
Firstly, marijuana is not widely accepted as a drug that can completely annihilate specific parts of an evening whilst leaving other ‘memories’ intact. In short there is no real evidence to suggest that marijuana can have this effect. Raffaele Sollecito was a heavy pot smoker and it’s likely that Amanda was too, as such the chances of either of them ‘forgetting’ an entire evening, especially considering their previous level of exposure and resistance to the drug, are basically zero. It therefore follows that as the probability of this happening to one of them is low, the chances of it happening to both are even lower. Secondly we also have evidence that a cleanup took place. If Amanda and Raffaele were so stoned they passed out, how can we explain the DNA evidence at the crime scene and the evidence of a clean up? It would not have been possible to have cleaned the apartment (and it was a pretty good job too) if they were that stoned.
Basically it’s a lie and one that has irreparably damaged the credibility of the defendants. Not only that but according to recent research about perpetrators who feign amnesia, it could also be extremely damaging to the defendants overall memory recall which will be vital in order to avoid being ripped to shreds in cross examination if and when they take the stand.
Feigning Amnesia
I’ve recently been thinking about perpetrator amnesia and those who attempt to use it as an alibi particularly in murder cases.
Amnesia takes many forms but is essentially memory loss. It can be permanent or temporary and can be caused by any number of things from brain damage to witnessing or experiencing a severely traumatic event.
An article published in the International Journal of Law and Psychiatry called ‘Claims of Crime-Related Amnesia in Forensic Patients’ highlights the differences in theory amongst those attempting to explain the reasons why perpetrators claim amnesia when accused of serious crime and whether these claims have any basis in reality.
According to the authors there are three basic theories as to why offenders claim amnesia when confronted with accusations of a serious crime:
The first outlines the idea that the nature of most serious crime and in particular very violent homicides is very stressful for the offender and argues that these types of offences provoke “strong and emotional reactions” which arguably undermines the memory of the actual crime.
The second argues that in a lot of cases, offenders who claim amnesia have often been extremely intoxicated at the time of committing the crime, this theory suggests that the ability of the offender to encode specific memories about the event is impaired due to intoxication. The researchers also noted a correlation between alcoholism and offenders who claim amnesia.
The third theory outlines the idea that most cases of crime-related amnesia are a form of malingering and that offenders who claim amnesia are in fact feigning a memory deficit to escape or reduce responsibility for their actions.
I am not a fan of reductionist theories that attempt to simplify complex subjects such as this and as such I am inclined to believe that instances of crime-related amnesia are a combination of the above. One theory I am very interested in pursuing with regard to understanding this case further is the idea that offenders who appear to be feigning amnesia in order to escape punishment may actually be attempting to come up with a plausible rationale for the crime without actually having to discuss crime details that may distress or upset them, as a result of this offenders will often claim they do not remember what happened, both to avoid punishment and so they do not have to ‘reconstruct’ memories of the crime. Memory recall is a tricky area and it has been proven that time elapse and suggestion have a very strong effect on memory recall, lawyers for example are not allowed to ask leading questions in court as memories can occasionally be ‘reconstructed’ as a result of suggestion.
I am of the belief that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are feigning amnesia in order to avoid punishment for their actions and to avoid discussing specific crime details that may be causing them stress or discomfort.
Further research has been conducted into the effects of feigning amnesia on ongoing memory recall. This research suggests that offenders who feign amnesia are more likely to have decreased memory recall over time, further suggesting that offenders who claim to ‘forget’ actually do partially forget. The problem with this is that their original statements and ‘memories’ have already been recorded for use during trial, what can sometimes happen is an offender has spent such a long time pretending not to remember that they experience dissociative amnesia, especially if the crime was traumatic or very violent. In these instances, specific details become hazy and inconsistencies appear which then often results in the defendant being ripped to shreds when they eventually take the stand.
Amanda and Raffaele have already demonstrated an amazing ability to twist details in to newer and ‘improved’ versions of what happened that night, this coupled with their disassociation from the crime and each other has certainly done its fair share of damage already. The inconsistencies in Amanda and Raffaele’s stories have in part come about simply because they have attempted to ‘block out’ and ‘shut away’ any memories of that evening.
Amanda and Raffaele are having (and will continue to have) serious problems with their memory recall for the following reasons:
- A great deal of time has passed between the murder and the trial
- They have repeatedly lied about their actions and whereabouts on the night and can no longer remember what they said, who they said it to and why they said it.
- They have both claimed amnesia which is shown to have an effect on subsequent memory recall of the crime itself.
- They have both in all likelihood been involved in an extremely violent murder and sexual assault, according to current theory this could have been traumatic enough to severely impair memory recall of the event and as such they are completely resisting all attempts by the prosecution to talk about what actually happened that night (it will take a great many years of therapy and counselling to get this out of them)
- They were both intoxicated on the night in question which may have had a moderate effect on memory encoding and subsequent memory recall.
As a result of this Amanda and Raffaele will have serious problems if and when they take the stand, I wager that this will the point when someone will crack or slip up, especially if and when Mignini chooses to cross examine them. They won’t stand a chance.
Some ideas and conclusions
Crime related amnesia is a fairly common occurrence in the criminal justice system and there have been a great number of theories attempting to understand why it is so often used as an ‘excuse’ by offenders accused of serious crime.
Psychologists believe it may be in part an attempt to disassociate from the crime both in the attempt to avoid punishment and as an attempt to avoid reconstructing memories of a particularly violent crime which may distress the offender.
I believe that the fact Amanda and Raffaele are using amnesia as a defence strongly indicates they were present in the cottage that night and played an active role in a disturbing and highly sadistic crime which they are now disassociating themselves from. Amanda and Raffaele have experienced problems with memory recall and have been unable to provide a credible or reliable alibi which seems to indicate that they do not in fact have one.
They were at the cottage that night and they in all likelihood participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
Thanks again for this intelligent article. Have you any thoughts about the possibilities of two people both having this sort of amnesia? Is that credible?
Hi Ginny, welcome and good question.
The thing is, and I hope I don’t sound pernickety, but it’s not really a ‘type’ of amnesia as such (well it is and it isn’t), it’s more of a ‘convenient defence argument’ which is backed up with behavioural evidence which suggests they have both seen the same ‘traumatic event’ and are both disassociating themselves from it and each other.
Some people are more prone to disassociation than others, people who smoke a lot of dope for example; drug taking is in itself a form of disassociation so as a demographic population the probability of RS and AK dissociating at some point is higher than with non-drug takers.
If it was a medically defined ‘diagnosis’ rather than a ‘convenient alibi’ the chances of both of them experiencing it would be low, however it’s more of a sociological phenomenon which has in part been exaggerated by films and TV shows which depict people ‘getting off’ for having ‘diminished responsibility’. Both defendants are manipulative, both are shrewd and both are clever. I think in all likelihood they may have discussed the ‘well if they start asking too many questions then just tell them we were smoking dope’ joint alibi, what they didn’t factor in was the arrival of the postal police and the intensity of the questioning and subsequent investigation, they probably didn’t have time to even think about alibis and in any case I think they were cocky enough to assume they wouldn’t be closely scrutinised. They were wrong and now they are paying for it, big time.
The joint disassociation theory is credible only when we consider the evidence of both being present at the crime scene, both claiming foggy recollections of the evening, joint and split alibi’s and we also consider the fact that one hasn’t really sailed the other down the river, RS not giving AK an alibi is not the same as sailing her down the river, he really could have done a lot worse by now, which makes my suspicion he was involved even stronger.
The defendants are and always will be inextricably linked not just because they were a couple but because of what they have seen and done together. No matter how much pot they smoked they would never, ever forget what happened in the cottage that night. Look at Rudy’s diary he couldn’t stop talking about the blood. These two in a strange sort of way need each other because in keeping silent they can ‘ignore’ the problem, if one crumbles the other will too.
It is this odd ‘pact’ that lends the joint disassociation theory credibility.
Thank you; that makes a lot of sense.
I think the trial could/might use this information- as you say if it was a medical diagnosis the likelihood of the two of them developing amnesia would be highly improbable. How they expect to get away with relying on neither having a clear memory is beyond me.
I know a lot of people who smoke/ have smoked weed- not one has ever admitted to losing a night, unlike people who drink a lot. These are two very naive people, from what I have read, to believe they can get away with no straight story of where they were or what they were doing.
I am still going from blog to blog, I particularly keep up to date with Frank’s and True Justice for Meredith for the polar opposites of views on the trial (the jumps from what is presented to what is read into it to further and support their own opinions, especially by Frank, is quite outstanding sometimes!)- I think this is the fairest, looking at the evidence and behavioural aspects, while studying why the crime was committed. After all, however wrong the reason, there has to be a reason.
I look forward to your next post- keep up the good work.
Hi Miss R,
Had some trouble today and last night getting on to your site, not quite sure what the problem was. So today, I spent some time on Candace Dempsey’s blog, I did not comment, they would have deleted me any way, if I had, but holy doodle, have I got a headache, where did some of these people come from? They talk about other sites not being objective and offensive, well I can tell you, they make new meaning to the words.
I have to admit though, there is Finn, Yummi, and Longl that i thought, and rather enjoyed reading their posts. I think, Candace at times was quite ok, but definitely, would like to see Ak and RS aquitted anyway possible, loopholes, tampered evidence, etc….
There was a few people posting, that Candace had to warn a couple of times to be careful with comments, and these people were her regular bloggers.
But wow, who are some of these people? I mean some of their comments are just so utterly ridiculous, if they read some of these comments 5 years from now, they probably would deny they even wrote some of this. Finn, gives possibilities or some food for thought on something, and they just ridiculously respond to it. Anyway, I am sure you know what I mean. Nice to finally get back on to your site.
Looking forward too reading some more sencible thought and ideas concerning this case.
Hi Ginny,
I completely disagree with your comment that the contributors to the True Justice For Meredith Kercher website make jumps from what is presented to what is read into it. I’d like you point out any examples where that has happened.
The contributors have accurately translated extracts of Judge Paolo Micheli’s official report to help readers understand his reasons for finding Rudy Guede guilty and sending Amanda Knox and Sollecito to trial.
Kermit’s brilliant powerpoint presentations clearly show that there were three sets of different sized bloody footprints that match the foot sizes of Knox, Sollecito and Guede at the crime scene and, contrary to what Candace Dempsey and Frank Sfarzo claimed for months, it is possible to see the gate of the cottage on via della Pergola from the basketball court in Piazza Grimana.
Nicki’s powerpoint presentations on the DNA evidence have helped the layperson make sense of what is a very complex subject. Nicki also explained very clearly how the Italian legal system actually works.
There has been a concerted effort to mislead and manipulate the general public. Meredith Kercher is the victim of this terrible murder. Some people have tried to erase her name from the narrative and replace it with the name of the prime suspect, Amanda Knox.
The True Justice For Meredith Kercher website has exposed media spin by pointing out the numerous inaccuracies in television news reports, and newspaper and magazine articles. The contributors have done their utmost to stop Meredith’s name being erased from the narrative.
Hi Ginny,
Following on from Harry Rag’s comment I’d like to assure you I do not mean to ‘attack’ in any way, in fact I like to be fair whenever I can but do feel I must jump in and make a correction or two. Firstly TJMK and Perugia Shock are certainly different but I do not think we can say the guys at TJMK ‘jump’ on anything to form their ‘own’ opinions, TJMK and PMF has and will always be a team effort with a group of very intelligent people whose primary motive for giving up their time is to seek justice for Meredith and help combat the ‘spin’ surrounding this case.
Reporting on the case has not been terrific in places and though there are some that have reported well, TJMK and PMF remain two of the the only websites I trust when researching for my own posts, I spent a long time reading (and mostly there) before I even dared express a single word here. I owe them a lot.
Though I have at times used Frank’s blog as a source I wouldn’t trust the guy as far as I could throw him and for good reason, he clearly has a hidden agenda. The fact that I trust the guys at TJMK and PMF inequivocally is a testament to their dedication and hard work in collecting and analysing the facts of this case.
Ginny wrote: “How they expect to get away with relying on neither having a clear memory is beyond me”, it’s beyond me too Ginny and that’s why blogs like this exist.
Hi Miss Represented. Thanks for this interesting blog. I recently started reading it and since I don’t know anything about psychology, I’ve learnt alot. Something jumped out at me from your recent post and I’d like to comment on it. You claim that it’s been proven that AK wasn’t hit. I’m not sure we are in a position to say that, or that we ever will be. I have no idea whether she was clipped round the ear or not but would hazard a guess that as an American female, she was probably treated much better than others in a similar boat. (Something else which may have muddied the waters here is the quite natural lack of understanding as to what an Italian lawyer will and won’t say in the best interests of their client. This is perhaps most clearly seen in some of AK’s supporters’ comments.)
I would never dream of writing on the internet that Aldo Bianzino was beaten to death by the local police at Capanne prison after being arrested for cultivating a few marijuana plants. Nor would I say what I know about the treatment other people have received at the hands of the local police while being held in custody. It’s best not to say certain things. Unfortunately, I don’t believe that these things make Perugia any different from many other cities around the world.
As I say, I think AK would have been treated far better than any dread-locked Italian, African or Eastern European suspect held by the Perugian police but I don’t think we know that she didn’t receive a few clips round the ear. This clearly doesn’t affect their implausible ‘amnesia’ nor their apparent lack of alibi. I hope I don’t appear to be nit-picking here, I write this more for Aldo than for any other reason. He was perfectly healthy when he entered prison; two days later, he was dead.
Hi Damiano,
Amanda Knox has destroyed her credibility as a witness by lying repeatedly. Many of the things she claimed at the police station and subsequently are blatant lies: she didn’t meet Diya Lumumba at the basketball court, Diya Lumumba didn’t kill Meredith, she wasn’t suffering from cannabis-induced amnesia, she wasn’t asked to envision what might have happened, the questioning didn’t last all night, there was a professional interpreter present, and she was given food and drinks.
Numerous witnesses have testified at the trial that Amanda Knox was not hit. Unlike Amanda Knox’s supporters, these witnesses were actually present at the police station. I have no reason to doubt the corroborated eyewitness testimony of several people. Their evidence will always carry more weight than the word of a compulsive liar. Amanda Knox has no-one else to blame, but herself if no-one believes her. Even Amanda Knox’s own lawyer, Luciano Ghirga, confirmed that Amanda had not actually been beaten or “smacked around”.
Hi Damiano,
Sadly, there are cases of perfectly healthy individuals dying in police custody in (almost) every country and it is a very serious matter for civil rights lawyers to address.
Yet, Amanda’s case clearly has nothing to do with those. There are witnesses who testify that she was not hit at the police station during questioning and I tend to believe them.
Amanda said that she was only “treated as a person” (given cakes?) by the investigators once she had made her statement accusing Patrick.
I believe that her words reflect, more than anything else, her lack of understanding of the seriousness of a murder case investigation and the fact that police station is not a Gucci shop and policemen not smiling can-I-help-you shop assistants.
Regarding her amnesia or “amnesia”, it has been evident that Knox has been trying, consciously or not, to dissociate herself from her position as a suspect in a murder case, a prison inmate and the accused of the most serious crime there is. Through her demeanor in court, her choice of clothing, her partaking in filming projects, her singing, her guitar and language lessons, she has been conveying her wish that she had nothing to do with Meredith’s murder.
Yet Amanda wishful thinking is one thing and the reality quite another.
Hi Guys,
Sorry about the late replies, I’ve been away from the computer for a day or so (so much for me ‘shamlessly’ promoting my blog on Frank’s blog over the weekend eh?’ *rolls eyes*)
Hi Damiano, nice to see you here. With regard to the statement ‘it has been proven that’ I’d like to defend my position it but it is actually unusual for me to say anything ‘proves’ anything, psychology brainwashes that out of you, everything needs to be ‘this suggests’ or ‘this may indicate’, you caught me on a slip up
But in all honesty, we could hang around for half our lives waiting for unquestionable and undisputable proof, we’d be waiting a long time. Plenty of witnesses have stated under oath she was not hit. Mignini has filed further slander charges against her for stating she was , the very fact that he has filed slander charges seems to indicate they have proof she wasn’t, therefore we can all but prove she wasn’t hit. But I do take your point, ‘proven’ is the wrong choice of word here.
Principessa, you have a great talent for summing things up: I believe that her words reflect, more than anything else, her lack of understanding of the seriousness of a murder case investigation and the fact that police station is not a Gucci shop and policemen not smiling can-I-help-you shop assistants.
Hi Miss Represented,
Thanks for your response. It perhaps explains why that line jumped out at me; you’re very precise with your choice of words and I was a bit surprised that you’d gone so far. I don’t believe we’ll ever know if AK received a couple of ‘scapelotti’ and in the grand scheme of things, I think it’s a bit of a side-issue anyway. A ‘scapelotto’ isn’t something which causes physical pain although it might mess your hair up a bit. I’m still trying to find the English equivalent.
Hi Harry. I agree with you about AK having a few credibility issues due to the lies she has told in the past. I also agree with what you say about the police witnesses testimony carrying more weight than AK’s, for the reason you mention and others. With regard to Ghirga’s comment, I understand why he is not keen to press the issue. I don’t think they have anything to gain by doing so, either way, as I alluded to in my previous comment. As an experienced criminal lawyer, he’ll obviously be aware of this too.
Hi principessa. I understand the point you were trying to make with your ‘Gucci shop’ analogy and there might well be something in it. I’ve always maintained that this case is being treated in an exemplary way by Italian standards, both in regard to the investigation and the speed of the trial,and have no reason to believe that AK’s interrogation was any different in this respect. After all, we’re talking about a couple of ‘scapelotti’. I also made it clear in my comment that I think she would have been treated very differently from other people in the same situation because she is a young middle-class American woman with very good lawyers.
Aldo Bianzino died two weeks before Meredith Kercher. He and his wife were first taken to Perugia police station and then Capanne prison. Lalli carried out the autopsy, which revealed severe damage to internal organs and two broken ribs, (apparently, the ribs had miraculously healed by the time of the second autopsy) and Judge Ricciarelli refused the prosecutors request to archive the case. This perhaps shows the decency and integrity of these two professionals, both of whom have been involved in the Kercher case. The prosecutor who ordered the arrest of the couple was also in charge of the investigation into Bianzino’s death. He claims that he died of natural causes. Video footage from inside the prison seems to have disappeared and nobody is talking. The press aren’t really following the case either, they hardly ever report on it. Nobody is being investigated and the chances of those responsible for Aldo’s death being brought to justice are next to nil, for reasons which I assume are obvious.
I realise you didn’t mean to cause offence with your ‘Gucci shop’ analogy but since you were responding to my comment about Aldo Bianzino, I think it was at best, an unfortunate choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&hl=it&v=21X6kuVlAe4
Hi Damiano,
The Gucci shop analogy was inappropriate Damiano and I apologise if any offence was caused. I can assure you (and I hope I can speak for Principessa too) that no offence was meant.
I really feel for Ms Radici and had no idea this sort of thing went on in Italy, is it common? Have Amnesty International made any comment? Her grief in the video link you posted was truly terrible to watch and I hope that one day she will find justice for poor Aldo Bianzino. Do you have any theories as to why he was mistreated in such a way? I’m curious about the arrest, the video suggests he was cultivating marijuana plants, is this a very serious offence in Italy? After all the boys in the apartment downstairs were allegedly growing marijuana and I read somewhere that it wasn’t really considered such a big deal in Italy.
A couple of years ago there was a review into control and restraint (C&R) techniques in young offenders institutes involving deaths of two young men in custody, as a result of this, instances where C&R techniques are employed must now be recorded on film and submitted to various authorities to ensure correct practices are adhered to. Such a terrible tragedy that the same ‘privilege’ was not extended to Aldo Bianzino, on the contrary he was actually beaten in custody. This terrible tragedy only serves to make Chris Mellas’s latest allegations that Amanda was ‘beaten’ in custody all the more inappropriate.
I am commenting for the first time as someone who has been fascinated with the case. More than anything else, because I want to see if Knox and Sollecito get away with things. I haven’t dedicated much time to analysis but do count myself an objective observer in most situations.
When I first heard about this crime and learned of the people involved, Knox in particular, I won’t say that I knew she did it, but I never doubted that she would be capable. Sounds strange to say without knowing the girl, but here’s why…
I spent a significant amount of time living in Seattle and working at an exclusive private school like the one she attended. There were many girls who seemed to be how she is described. That is to say, completely divorced from reality, inappropriate, afflicted with an extreme sense of entitlement, racist, selfish, inconsiderate, attention-seeking, etc. While she may have been somewhere near the bottom of lower middle of the income scale, she was steeped in an environment that reinforces the belief that rich, pretty (depending upon your tastes), white people who do the right things (i.e., get good grades, aspire to make lots of money, travel, play sports, speak multiple languages, etc.) are special and more worthy than those who don’t. In short she is a victim of her own privilege that led her to believe she should get the attention, that her stay abroad should be perfect, and that she could get away with anything she chose to do. I am not speaking of psychological issues, because she may truly have them. I am speaking strictly of her environment. I am also not saying that every child in this type of environment is capable of this sort of thing and perhaps that is where the psychological issues come in.
Anyway, the other thing I wanted to mention is Seattle. Seattle is a very strange place that is quite frankly, divorced from reality as well. People there are a strange lot and they kind of know it and they get defensive about it. They are extremely self-righteous and passive-aggressive and for all of their claims of liberalism and openness and acceptance, they are actually very closed and conservative (I like to call them pseudo liberals) and racist. To be fair, it is a place where positive ideals that I mention above exist on a larger scale in certain pockets of the area than in any other place in the United States, but I’ll tell you it is a strange place. Seattleites are strangely quick to defend the city and its citizens no matter what has been said or done. It’s a strange, self-righteous knee-jerk reaction that I think comes from Seattlelites believing that Seattle is a special place far ahead of the rest of the country when it comes to social justice issues. The city is beautiful but is also depressing and sometimes oppressive. People ignore deep seated problems that are deemed too hard to fix there and focus on recycling or some such…This is where Knox comes from. She is a product of her environment and I think many people have not examined that aspect of explaining who and what she is. This is not an attempt to justify only my two cents, quite frankly, the more I read your analyses, MR, the sadder I became just thinking to myself, ‘oh my goodness, what did they do to that girl?’ It’s heartbreaking. As a former teacher, my goodness, I can’t imagine.
I want to mention another thing that has been pretty glaring and has gone unmentioned. Perhaps it’s irrelevant since Meredith Kercher is dead now, but I feel it is important. When I first saw her, thought ‘oh, the victim was a young black woman.’ Now many will say it doesn’t matter, but as an American who has navigated racism all her life, I know it does. It matters the world over…Anyway, I do think that as much as Knox was jealous of Meredith Kercher’s other attributes, there is also an element ( a big one) of racism. What I mean is, as an American, unconsciously or not, Knox could have easily been thinking something like “Who does this black bitch think she is” more likely replacing black with something else. Perhaps not, but I don’t think it can be discounted. For, what else could explain her quick blaming of the bar owner and the willingness to blame Guede. Certainly Guede was/is a loser but it’s perfect, you know. it’s the we’ll blame the big-black-dumb-drug-dealing-guy. Further from what I can see of Guede, I find it hard to believe he would have been interested in Meredith Kercher, especially if he though she was black. My gut tells me he preferred white women, so I doubt he would be at all interested in Meredith Kercher or even in hurting her. This is Knox all of the way. I think the “blackness” of the Meredith Kercher, Lumumba, and Guede made it that much easier to dehumanize them and kill her then subsequently blame and thoroughly set up the other two.
I think of Knox and Sollecito’s parents and I shake my head, it is never acceptable to cover for your children when they have done something wrong. It is never acceptable to not demand the truth. You can support your babies, yes, but, in the face of unflattering truths, evidence that sheds doubt on the veracity of their claims, No. But in the end, perhaps that is why both of them are in the space that they are in right now.
Please forgive any rambling, grammar and/or spelling mistakes.
Being a native of Seattle, I find it difficult to respond to Lilypad without opening myself up to the charge of being a typically defensive Seatteleite. But I will try anyway.
It is true that some Seattleites are strangely, almost hysterically, defensive about Seattle. I have always thought (perhaps wrongly) that many of them are actually from other parts of Washington and see Seattle as “the big city” they always aspired to live in (“if you can make it there, you’ll make it anywhere”). But limiting myself specifically to this case, I must say that from what I can gather Seattle is far from solidly behind Amanda Knox because she’s a locally grown product. In fact, a small but vocal and well-organized group of rabid supporters – mostly made up of family and friends – may give that impression, but it does not reflect reality. Most of Seattle is not even following this case and, among those who are, a significant number of us feel that the investigation was conducted properly and professionally and that, though we believe the burden of proof is on the prosecution, we also believe Knox and Sollecito are where they should be: on trial to determine their involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
For reasons that escape me and that are not very important anyway, I have been personally threatened and attacked for being from Seattle, holding the view expressed in the paragraph above, and moderating a message board where people from all over the world gather to discuss this case. Most if not all of the people posting on that board believe more or less strongly that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
I also feel that Seattle is not more or less racist than the rest of the world. It would be pointless here to defend Seattle on that score by pointing to the number of blacks who have been elected to public office or the number of black students at O’Dea, another private Cahtolic school. Seattle has its fair share of private schools, like the one Knox attended, that have to some degree become havens for affluent white people who don’t want their kids mixing with poor people (or black people or gang members, etc.). They have enough money to opt out of the public school system and never have to defend themselves against the charge of racism. In fact, they see themselves as racially tolerant people. The problem is, how would they know? Personally, I think they are missing out on a hugely important lesson in how to live in a multi-racial, multi-cultural world. They are bound to be shocked one day and they are limiting themselves to white bread, which is pretty bland. I feel sorry for them in many ways.
But Seattle is far from alone in this regard. And as a lapsed Catholic, I am ashamed at the role Catholic schools have played in promoting this self delusion. Then again, hypocrisy is something the Catholic Church has practiced with success for centuries. Why abandon a winning formula?
At the same time, I have met kids from these exclusive private schools – whether in Seattle or elsewhere – and have seen a tremendous range of personality types. From self-absorbed narcissists to racists to selfless citizens of the world. It takes more than a school to produce a person. I went to one of the poorest public schools in Seattle – in South Seattle, where Amanda Knox comes from. That was a long time ago. But I certainly met my fair share of bigots there; it’s just that they tended to come from the wrong side of the tracks. In my own case, I come from a Catholic family with a long tradition of supporting minorities and integration. I guess I am a product of my family environment to some extent. It is hard to say, without knowing more about Knox’s family, what their racial attitudes are. It is possible that Knox grew up without encountering many minorities, although the community of White Center has a huge Samoan and Asian population (mostly Cambodian and Vietnamese) and a sizeable Hispanic one.
I do find it telling that her family members consistently refer to Rudy Guede and Patrick as “African American”, however. It is as if their experience of the world is so limited that they don’t realize there are black people living in other parts of the world, or they think that all blacks who have emigrated to another country from Africa or the Caribbean are called African Americans. But the Seattelites I know would not make this mistake.
Finally, I definitely think that if Amanda Knox were black and poor, then Seattle might not be interested in her situation. In addition, I have personally witnessed in the blogosphere the poorly concealed racism against Patrick, when he was a suspect, and then against Guede. I have no doubt that some of the very closest and most rabid local supporters truly believe that Guede’s race makes him a more likely perpetrator.
Now it is my turn to apologize for rambling!
SB,
I am by no means saying that Seattle is unique in any of this. I just found as a transplant from an entirely different part of the country that there is a particular brand of all that I mentioned that exists there. Really like nothing I’ve ever experienced. I suppose greater clarification would require my sharing some personal experiences, something I won’t do here. Anyway, I’ll just say my intention was not to attack Seattle…I won’t try to explain, it’s a slippery slope and this forum is about the case. Seattle is a beautiful city with a very different culture…
Regarding private schools I also didn’t mean to suggest that this phenomenon exists solely with private schools in Seattle.
I just think that a few of the points I made are things that stuck out to me and things that have rarely been addressed. And of course I have not read everything that has been written about the case.
I actually didn’t know that they refer to the two men (Guede and Lumumba) as African American. I do find this telling and…well, I’ll stop there.
Thanks for addressing issues in the comment that I left, as a newcomer to this blog, I appreciate it as I rarely leave comments anywhere.
In the end, I just hope that justice is served. I wish that for the victims of any crime.
Thanks again.
Hi lilypad, I am also a Seattle native and a person who is beyond embarrassed of how the Knox PR circus and FOA reflect on our city – as well as the America.
I hate to think the world is being left with the impression we are all like them – they are outrageous! Our journalists do not report the news accurately, another embarrassment.
I think Seattle has changed a great deal over the last few decades. It has always had a friendly personality and one with outgoing people. People from other towns just don’t get it. It’s like Nordstrom opening in Chicago. They had to send their employees from Seattle to teach the spirit of “customer service.” I don’t understand the “inside” cultures when I go to NY either and due to its reputation I am always surprised and find it refreshing to meet friendly people there.
I learned by example from my mother how this friendly culture operated. A simple kind act like offering tourists to take their picture – honestly I couldn’t just walk by without offering. Nowadays people just think you’re going to steal their camera and look at you like you’re a freak. Low and behold try it when you are in Europe or Africa, I have, they just don’t understand your offer.
When it comes to the Knox “smokescreen” I’d say I am one very hysterically defensive Seattleite. They don’t represent any one of the 250 homes in my neighborhood of which the majority of them are from various countries. People and attitudes are just different. The last thing most of them care about is “being nice” and I care a great deal about it. I have not experienced racism in our neighborhood but certainly in other communities without diveristy.
I agree many Seattleites are self-righteous and passive-aggressive. Driving is NUTS and I wouldn’t think twice about explaining to the lady with the shopping cart blocking the exit and holding up a line of people she ought to move it …but do that in Hawaii and you can bet you will get “stink eye” from everyone in line behind you. Seattle is no different than most cities.
Some people are not so desirable, as is the case anywhere. I would not go to White Center where Knox lived for no other reason than the last time (15 years ago) I was there with my husband at a bar listening to a band we knew the guys, while playing someone comes right up on the stage and sticks a knife into the drummer. The band just packs up and considers it “another night on that part of the town.”
And I am proud to recycle and don’t understand why everyone in the world doesn’t. It’s not hip, it’s just necessary and I am proud Seattle supports it to the level they do.
Sorry to hear the city seems to make you uncomfortable or unwelcome, that must be real drag. I could suggest a dog so you can go the no-leash parks, seems like that’s the thing to do, if you like dogs.
To everyone: I would declare “Not everyone in Seattle is for Knox!”
I realize this was off topic but being the defensive Seattleite I am I just had to say something; (MR) I very much appreciate the opportunity to present my feelings and lilypad I am not critical on your views – it is simply a topic dear to my heart and seems to be an appropriate time to express my thoughts so thanks you for bringing it up. Regards, Professor Snape
Morning Guys!
Lilypad, welcome! Thanks to Skep and Snape for your comments on Seattle in response to Lilypad.
I myself have never been to Seattle so wouldn’t be the best person to comment on these issues, but I did grow up in a very small community in south west England and can remember seeing only a handful of people from black or minority ethnic (BME) backgrounds when I was growing up. I had no BME friends or acquaintances until I left home. Luckily my parents brought me up to be respectful and tolerant of other people, cultures and races but I clearly remember a lot of instances where friends or acquaintances of mine at school were flagrantly racist in front of teachers or their parents and it was not really challenged. I could never work out whether these kids were being ‘allowed’ to make these comments because there were no BME students or teachers around to hear them or whether political correctness hadn’t reached the level it is at now and people just didn’t care.
We British have become a very politically correct nation and have the awful habit of getting offended on behalf of other people, particularly those from BME backgrounds, our culture is inherently, almost obsessively ‘anti-saying anything that might offend someone’. The effect this has had on some people is dramatic and it has rubbed off on some of our children, not with the effect of encouraging tolerance and acceptance but with the same hysterical panic that somebody somewhere might accuse you of being racist, this does not breed tolerance and acceptance in fact I have always been of the opinion that it drives a further wedge between communities of white people and those people from BME backgrounds.
I have noticed in some instances that the same groups of people that simply love to get offended on behalf of someone else are quite happy to make rude and extremely offensive comments about people from eastern Europe working in the UK who they claim should ‘go back home’ for ‘not being able to speak the language properly’ or are simply outraged that these people are ‘coming over here and taking our jobs’ (jobs which I’d like to point out that a lot of people don’t want to do anyway), these are the same people that will scream to high heaven if somebody on the TV or radio made the same comments. A lot of these people like to shout about ‘equal opportunities for black people’ yet completely ignore the fact that there are twice (possibly even three) times as many black men in prison as there are white. In amongst all the people shouting and screaming on behalf of pertiularly young black men in this country, their voices are not heard and they do not get the help and support they need because of this.
Lilypad: I too am well aware of the types of girl you talked about in your first comment and have spent a great deal of time with them growing up and at university, you know the sorts: horsey types, big fluffy hair, Miu Miu handbags, Prada sunglasses, more Jack Wills waistcoats and Lacoste flip flops than anyone could wear in a lifetime and all the while desperately in search of a personality. I can only imagine the effect these sorts of girls would have had on Amanda as she was growing up, with reference to the ‘lesbian’ comments that were made about Amanda; I know how cruel these sorts of girls can be.
Slighty off topic but an interesting discussion nonetheless, thanks guys
To Harry Rag and Miss R, sorry for the late replies- a long weekend with no internet!
Apologies for my commenet re True Justice- As far as commenting on the case goes I completely trust their blogs- the small bit I had an issue with was the jump to guess what Meredith may have visited or been to in Italy or in London- as far as the case goes I completely agree though- it seems to state what has been said in court without jumping to conclusions on their side- it doesn’t need to as the evidence is speaking for itself more often than not!
Went on Franks website- Good Lord the assumptions are just embarrassing! So Apologies again, and keep up the good work Miss R!
Good Morning all.
I have to say. This is what even the mention of racism does, it tends to get people off topic. This is not a forum on race but I will try to clarify and then I won’t mention it again.
I am saying that my experience in Seattle being from my background/ethnicity I experienced racism and maybe SB and PS, it is different from yours because of that, maybe, I don’t know. People have their personal views and sometimes not-so-personal ones as we saw during the U.S. Presidential Campaign last year. Fine as long as everything remains respectful.
Anyway here goes…
One type was the blatant ‘you-n***ger type. The other (more often) was the oh ‘your culture is so fascinating, your hair, your skin they’re so beautiful and I want to be your friend because of them, you’re so different-type.” I think there are lots of the second type in Seattle. I could share lots of personal stories from my time there but as I said I won’t. I will say that I felt more uncomfortable there than anywhere I’ve lived, including Southern Indiana in a town chocked full of Confederate flags and other unsavory business. In any case, there is no need to defend the city. If someone said my current city or state was racist and or corrupt I wouldn’t be offended, it is. (There was a hint there
) And it is no reflection on me, I just live here.
I also know that I have absorbed elements of racism because I am American, I grew up here that is part of our culture and that’s what I am saying with respect to Knox. Ethnicity/race could have played a part in the dehumanization of Meredith Kercher, Guede, and Lumumba because Amanda Knox is an American steeped in a culture that is, as most will agree, pretty racist. Seattle is in America, my city is an America hence there will be racist attitudes, among everyone to a greater or lesser degree. Maybe it’s not OK but it’s a reality, at least for awhile. Why are we not talking about this with respect to the case anyway?
Thanks MR for responding I like how you have analyzed things and offered so much food for thought her on your blog. I looked elsewhere and saw another comment similar to the one I made about Knox and Sollecito’s parents. At this point that’s the real shame that they are refusing to allow for the possibility that their kids are lying and most likely murderers.
Thanks again.
Good morning all.
Off-off-off-off topic, Miss R,. but “horsey types” about made me spit up my coffee
All of you on here are morons. I watched the 20/20 case and am horrified that thse young people are on trial. THEY ALREADY HAVE THE KILLER BEHIND BARS. Oh, and she must have done it because she is from Seattle. HAHAHAHA
Seriously?
Watch the 20/20 special before drawing conclusions.
Hi Nadia, Sorry if it appears I’m jumping to conclusions but am I right in saying that you are basing your entire knowledge of the case on a 20/20 special? I’d recommend doing some further reading before calling everyone here ‘morons’ it doesn’t tend to go down well and will hardly endear you to your fellow commenters.
Nobody is suggesting Amanda could be involved simply because she is from Seattle and nobody is denying that they already have one person who was involved in the murder behind bars. Whilst the trial continues I’d recommend TJMK and PMF for further reading, I’d also recommend keeping an open mind and not coming here with such loaded, pointless and stroppy remarks.